Maiden family finds in NC Archives
RE: Maiden family finds in NC Archives Madden Research
Madden Research Re: Madden Research
RE: Madden Research
RE: Madden Research RE: Madden Research
RE: Madden Research
Saturday, October 3, 2009 12:47 PM
From:
"Donna Hay"
To:
amandgar@aol.com, "Harold Davey"
I guess you are never satisfied, always hoping for more magical finds, but I actually found quite a bit about John Maiden (but nothing at all for Samuel Passwater) on my trip to Raleigh.
My complete summary is here: http://haygenealogy.com/hay/sources/NorthCarolinaArchives.html
What I found was the complete 1772 will for Andrew Maden. I only had had the abstract before, and they had the complete transcript available, that I held and copied.
I also found a reference to a payment to a John Maddin during the revolutionary war, from an Account Book. Not much, but much better than nothing. As far as I know, there is no other adult John Maiden in NC during the Revolution, so I am pretty sure it is ours. This is the only record I have uncovered that actually proves Patriot service.
Interesting 1790s land grant records. Of particular interest is that the one in 1795 was from Joseph Polk to John Maiden. This is the first clue I have found about how the Maiden ancestors are related to President Polk's ancestors. But, I am not sure that this is our John, or perhaps more likely, his son or a nephew.
In fact, George will be most interested in this because he has a John with a son Samuel who moves from Rowan/Iredell in the early 1790s to Mecklenberg by 1796 and then to Orange, and then to TN. The Polks were primarily from Mecklenberg. The references to Mary on deeds related to this grant makes me think John married a Mary Polk. So George, my hypothesis for you to examine further, is that your John, born circa 1770 is John Jr, married to Mary Polk circa 1795 (the catalyst for the grant from Joseph to John), they had Samuel, then Mary died and your John remarried and ended up in TN.
No revolutionary war land grants found. But the NC archives has just some. There are others at the National Archives, and later grants in the TN archives. We should look there, and especially see if a land grant is what caused John Jr to go to TN. All the NC land grants for Patriot service were in TN.
There was also an 1815 Iredell Tax list. Didn't add too much.
I am not shocked but disappointed I found nothing on the Passwaters. :(
Enjoy! --Donna
Monday, October 5, 2009 5:48 PM
From:
"George Madden"
To:
"Donna Hay"
Donna-
Thanks, and good to hear from you. Maybe you
have found a lead to one of my two most problematic
questions, which is "who was John W. Madden's first wife?"
I have not done much work of late as I moved from Virginia
to Texas a little over a year ago and that consumed a lot of
time and attention. I just read your e-mail after returning from
a 5 day out of state trip, so need a little time to digest your
findings and respond to you properly.
Promise to get to it soon.
Thanks again,
George Madden
Monday, October 12, 2009 8:58 AM
From:
"George Madden"
To:
"Donna Hay"
Donna,
Thank you very much for including me on your distribution of research findings.
First let me say that I am very impressed with the depth of work you have done and what you have found. Second, I have to admit that my head is swimming from the complexity of data points we have among Anson, Iredell and Orange Counties, with the same given names showing up over and over among the Maddens. I am down to trying to sort out things like which Stephen or John signed his name with an "X" and which one could write. It sure would be easier for us if the family had been more creative with given names.
My work has mainly centered on Orange Co., along with a futile search to try to tie back to Samuel M's birth in Mecklenburg Co. in 1796. Some of the things I have found that may be of interest (please forgive me if I have given you some of this before):
The earliest Madden (various spellings) I have found in Orange Co. is who I call "Old" John. He appears in 1755 as a member of a survey crew surveying the grant of 292 ac to James Bowie. John then purchased that tract from Bowie in 1759. In 1769 he, "being of advanced age" conveyed 95 ac
of his land (on north crossing of Pine Mtn. Creek) to his son-in-law Wharton Whalley. John signed with an "X". I assume, but do not know, that the remaining 197 ac eventually conveyed to a son or sons and have been trying to match up land records that might be that property.
"Old" John's wife was possibly Elenor, as John and Elenor Maden were listed a debtors/borrowers from John McGee in 1773, Orange Co. However, this is more likely an unknown younger John, possibly "Old" John's son. By 1773 "Old" John would have been of very advanced age or dead, and unlikely to be a borrower (he would have still had a 197 ac of land and a daughter and son-in-law living next to him). As an aside, considerable property of John McGee was burned by the Regulators in response to what were considered unfair debts/interest rates and shady land transactions.
I have noted a fair number of Madden land transactions in the late 1700's but have not indentified anything that is highly useful because the loss of the 1790 census for Orange Co. has made it impossible for me to get help in sorting them out.
I have a plat map of early Orange Co. land grants but cannot be sure exactly where "Old" John's land was and who the grantees surrounding him were. James Bowie had at least four scattered tracts, one of which is adjacent to the Morgans (a frequent Madden family given name, and said to be "TN." John W's son Samuel M's middle name, but that comes oral from current family). I need to try to pin down the location,
note the neighboring grantees and try to trace their land transactions to see if anything interesting shows up. One tract is adjacent to a Michael Whatley (son-in-law Whalley?).
As you know, I have determined that Samuel M's mother is lost and his birth in Mecklenburg Co. in 1796 is problematic. I have been trying to find if there is perhaps a tie to the Morgan family.
In 1783 Stephen Madden (who could sign his name) bought 500 ac on the Eno River. In 1805 a Stephen Madden sold 170 ac on "the waters of the Eno" to John Madden (of Orange Co.), who almost certainly is my John W. This land abutted Joseph Allison Sr's land. Joseph was the grandfather of John W's son Samuel M's wife Jane Allison. This land seems to be the last John W had before he moved on to Humphries Co, TN somewhere between 1810-15.
Prior to that in late 1799 John W bought 100 ac on the waters of Back Creek. This is the first reference I have to John W becoming a land owner in Orange Co. He sold 82 ac of that land to Ezekiel Currie in 1806, apparently since he had now bought the 170 ac from Stephen (above) and moved his family there. If he had been away from Orange Co for a while (son Samuel born Mecklenburg Co. in 1796) this would seem to be when he came back to Orange.
In 1801 John W married Jeanie Guthrie. His bondsmen were Henry H. Collum and Alexander Madden (signed with "X") who may have been John W's father, brother, uncle, cousin - who knows. Jeanie's father James died and left 1/3 each of his property to wife Elizabeth, and sons-in-law John W Madden and Alexander McMinnamy. In 1810 the three of them sold 300 ac (on the S. Hico) to Richard Hinslee. This money may have been what financed John and Jeanies' move to TN.
Another extraneous tidbit found at the Orange Co courthouse.
Stephen Maddan (signed with "X"), late of Orange Co, took out a loan from Robert Stewart, pledging his land in Orange Co. So this Stephen had moved elsewhere (Rowan/Iredell, out of state??). The land was 250 ac bordering the Eno River, and had been purchased from George Thedford.
Sorry I don't have anything of more interest, but you never know when something might tie together.
My thought at this point (complete supposition) is that "Old" John came down from Lancaster Co, PA (there were close family ties to the Allison's who definitely were from Lancaster Co). He probably had sons John, Stephen, Alexander and possibly Samuel. All of these sons named their sons John, Stephen, Samuel, etc. It is possible that my John W's father was Alexander (marriage bond) and he named Samuel M after his uncle, brother or cousin. Who knows? - I may never be able to sort them out.
I will continue to study the information on your site to see if I can find any connections. And, I will let you know if I find anything new. Although I have let my work lapse of late you have inspired me, and I like your suggestion regards using the National Archives. There is a Regional branch of the Archives in Fort Worth, TX, a three hour drive from here.
Regards, George Madden
Monday, October 12, 2009 9:38 AM
From:
"George Madden"
To:
"Donna Hay"
Addition/Correction to my prior communication.
Date of the loan transaction for Stephen Maddan, late of Orange Co, was Aug. 26, 1787. Just saw that I failed to note the date originally.
George Madden
Monday, October 12, 2009 11:07 AM
From:
"Donna Hay"
To:
"George Madden"
well, we make a perfect pair. I research mostly Rowan/Iredell and you Orange! I am convinced that the Rowan bunch is related to the Orange bunch, but it may just be too hard to uncover it all.
-- so many of the references that originated with Sarah Maiden said Orange. In fact, she never mentioned Rowan. She was born in Iredell in 1800, and moved to IN in 1806. And her father was born and lived in Rowan/Iredell. But in the biographies, clearly based on her stories since she lived to 1885, it only mentions Orange
-- "My" branch clearly was in Orange in 1754. The "first" Andrew Maiden, born circa 1720, migrated to Orange with babies Hannah and "my John", and with new baby Lawrence born there. Lawrence specified he was born in Orange in 1754 on his 1832 pension application, and since he had lived his entire adult life in Rowan/Iredell, he knew the difference.
-- the family history as it was told was that they emigrated from Wales to PA in the 1740s (that would make Andrew the emigrant), and moved from PA to NC circa 1750. That ties in with the land survey in Cumberland, and the uncertainly whether Andrew's son John ("my" John) was born in PA or Wales circa 1750.
So I think it is worthwhile to try to sort out the different Maidens in Orange in 1750-1800. I am sure that the Rowan Maidens are related to some if not all the Orange Maidens there at that time.
I have been working on this line over this weekend, just sorting out Sarah's sibling's families (http://haygenealogy.com/hay/grandchildrenam.html). It is sad that so many lines died out. I don't think it's likely we will find out much from the descendants of her siblings.
Have you found any good old biographies? I found those were more popular in the late 1800s, and usually do not mention the older generations much.
:) Donna
Monday, October 12, 2009 2:31 PM
From:
"George Madden"
To:
"Donna Hay"
Do you think my "Old John the Surveyor" and/or "Old John who gave land to his son-in-law" could be your John? Do the dates I gave look reasonable based on his estimated birth date?
George
Monday, October 12, 2009 2:59 PM
From:
"Donna Hay"
To:
"George Madden"
Perhaps. Let me look at my John records and see if there are contradictory (time-wise) records for him in Iredell. Although, sometimes land records are not definitive of that -- I have Thomas Hay owing land in Nebraska, in addition to his land in IL, and as far as I know, he never even visited NE. If I didn't have the info in a biography, I would never have guessed. He surely never lived there. I haven't done a lot with land records. Was it common in the 1700s to buy any land you could if the price was right, even if you didn't live there? :( why didn't they at lease leave good wills that specified the children and who each parent was!! :)
Donna
Monday, October 12, 2009 7:01 PM
From:
"Donna Hay"
To:
"George Madden"
this is one of the reasons I am so scratching my head and unsure about where in NC the family was from -- and why I think not only Rowan/Iredell (which is 150 miles from Raleigh)
I have attached a 1929 letter (fhttp://haygenealogy.com/hay/wph-hay/1929WPHayletter.jpg) from my great uncle William Perry Hay, the genealogist in the family (1871-1947) to his father Oliver Perry Hay (1846-1930). In it he discusses a letter from his grandfather Robert Lyle Hay (1821-1903) that talked about his ggf (Robert Hay -- ~1740-~1820, when he emigrated at age 80!!!) and his gf William Hay (1763-1849), and their emigration dates.
He also mentioned that when he visited Robert Lyle Hay (ovbiously prior to 1903) he also talked to Aunt Jane Giles (1830-1901, daughter of Sarah Maiden Hay and Thomas Hay, both born 1800, both died 1885). She recalled everything without consulting any notes, and would probably have been about 70 at the time.
The curious part is that if you look at the trees on the right half of the page, both mention specifically that Sarah Maiden's grandfather was John Maiden and he is "said to have been a soldier in Rev from Raleigh, NC"
So I am not sure if they just were confused, since I have records of John in Iredell, or if he somehow lived near Raleigh some, or at least went to Raleigh to volunteer.
I wish he had lived a little longer (my last record is a court record in 1825 when he testified how he knew (Regulator-leader) William Butler -- and this was an Iredell record, or course. If he had just lived to 1832 he would have applied for a pension, and all this would be clear.
ahh, well, that's the "fun" of it, huh?
This is why I keep butting up against those Raleigh records too. Especially since I have that 1832 (http://haygenealogy.com/hay/patriots/maiden.html) record from John's little brother Lawrence that states he was born in Raleigh in 1754 -- and he wrote it in Iredell, and would have known the difference.
Donna
Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:09 AM
From:
"George Madden"
To:
"Donna Hay"
Land speculation was rampant if you had money and/or you got your hands on a good warrant. The vast majority of warrant holders sold their warrants to others, who were normally land speculators.
George